Well I thought since Sam usually monopolizes the good topics, I would bring up one that may or may not be good...what the heck...
I was just thinking of this today while I was doing my Social Studies testing, lol. I think we probably all agree, but what are everyone's thoughts on knowingly helping someone sin?
I know this sounds very black and white, like obviously selling someone a gun knowing they would use it to murder someone is wrong. what about assisted suicide? what about the guy who drives the taxi to a house targeted for burglary? what about the guy who doesn't act? and why do we view one sin as worse than another? is letting/"helping" someone sin also sin? what about not acting when you could, is that sin too?
two types of sin: doing something you shouldn't. not doing something you should.
i know where i stand on this (yeah, it's wrong)...just wanted to get other peoples' thoughts and opinions too.
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Yeah helping someone sin is wrong! Is it as bad as actually doing the sin? I think only God can really tell. I believe that since God can see the heart He would say one sin deserves more punishment than another even though we might think backwards, because He knows the motives.
I agree with Rosemary. Oh, and for the record the argument here is the difference betweent the sin of "commission" and "ommision".
yes--i believe not saying something can be dangerous too. it is our job to watch out for our friends like that.
though we need to be careful and not judge about things we are not sure about or that might be grey areas.
yep, yep, yep. couldn't agree more with all of you.
Aletheia - Great commet, my only thought was that all sin is equal in God's eyes. but yes, only God knows if it's as bad as commiting the sin.
Ryan - thanks lots for your intelligence....i need some help over here!
Sam - yes yes, good thoughts.
Millie - lol i usually ditto everyone else too!
oh yeah, i forgot to say that but I agree with Verya. All sin is the same in God's eyes... i think. lol, we went over and over this in Bible class freshman year and the class was very heavily devided on it.
which is not what mr. price says...when i asked him. remember? he seemed to say there were varying degrees of sins. but i think that's only our perceptions of them, not god's view.
AHA!
well this helps a little...
http://www.billygraham.org/LFA_Article.asp?ArticleID=60
I googled it, lol. Google is a wonderful thing. :)
I think definitely some sin is worse than others. I know there's Matthew 6 where Jesus says thinking it in your heart is as bad as actually doing it but there's also Luke 12:47-48 which says: "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." So I think this means that punishments for different sins will be different according to how bad God knew they were.
I used to wonder why people deserve eternal punishment. Why should a little kid who didn't sin very much in his lifetime have to suffer forever to pay for it? Wouldn't he eventually pay off his debt? But then I heard that since God is infinitely good any sin against Him even a tiny one is infinitely provoking to Him and therefore deserves infinite punishment.
So every sin deserves infinite punishment, but some deserve more severe punishment than others. That's what I think and you're free to disagree.
oh *looks sheepish* that's exactly what Billy Graham said. maybe I should have looked at that article before posting. :)
so then what's the point?
we can label sins worse than others, to help us.....what?
it gets the same result, right?
it seems like labeling sins differently would just cause us to say, well, i'm not as sinful as that person. when we really are. it seems to create a hierarchy of "good people" and "gooder people."
but this is just opinion, i suppose.
hhmmm....that's interesting.
yeah, I'm guessing this:
while some sins are worse than others, that doesn't make some people worse than others. here's what I was trying to remember when I wrote the post - God doesn't see all sin as equal (at least the Bible doesn't say that), but he does see all people equally. so He doesn't look at people and judge them, He judges their sin.
which is what we as Christians should try to do also. at least - not judge people, and leave the sin judging part up to God. so basically not judging anyone, which you will probably find very difficult if you a J instead of a P. ;)
but as humans, you're right Sam, I think it does create a heirarchy because we are fallen and forget that God is the judge and we aren't.
Okay bottom line, Sin is all equal in the sight of God. I deserve to go to hell for lying to my parents just as much a guy on death row who killed three people. Whether we as humans break it up into a hierarchy of sins doesn't change the fact that we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. It doesn't say that some have fallen harder than others. It says that all have fallen.
amen to that.
yes, ryan and verya are right.
so then why is it important that sins have different levels of badness?
Yeah good point. It would be really easy to point at someone "worse" than ourselves to justify our own actions. So I guess really the only Person it matters to is God, so that He can decide how much punishment each sinner should receive. As far as we are concerned, we should each say like Paul, "I am the chief of sinners."
Well and as far as God choosing how much punishment we recieve, I don't believe that's biblical. Everybody is going to be punished the same. The liar will burn for just as long as the murderer. If we say that God classifies levels of sin then we're no different than Catholics. That would in essence put our salvation in our own hands again because even if we didn't believe in Christ we could still lighten our punishment by being good and only commiting "small" sins. That seems slightly heretical.
I'm afraid I totally disagree with you there. It really doesn't sound fair to me for one thing for a little kid who never heard about Jesus and died young to get the same amount of punishment as somebody like Hitler. And it's not only my opinion--the Bible says that some will be punished more than others. (See Verya's Billy Graham article.)
And about what you said about lightening our punishment--if anyone believes there really is a hell they obviously will try not to go there at all; not just lighten their punishment. But I believe that people who never knew about Jesus but tried to live good lives will get--and deserve--less punishment than those who blatantly disobey Him.
Oh and about Catholics: their heresy is trying to earn their way to heaven. They basically believe that even Christians will be punished for their sin (in Purgatory). And of course the whole leftover-merit-from-the-saints is a whole load of lies. But the idea that some people are better than others is not heresy; that part is the truth.
If that's the case then why is it when we are all rewarded with our crowns in heaven we end up casting them at Jesus' feet because we are not worthy. I'd love to see any verses you have to support varrying degrees of punishment. The one I think that applies is Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." That seems to imply that if you sin you die and if you believe in Christ you live. Pretty straight forward and nowhere is there mentioned degrees of punishment or reward. I know there are verses that seem to support that but I don't know where so if you find any let's discuss them :) Very wise as usual Rosemary!
Hm, I never thought about the crowns verse. My first response to that would be that yes, of course we're all unworthy so casting our crowns at His feet would be the first thing we would do when we see His glory. But let's look more closely at the verse. It's in Revelation 4:10 and it says, "the twenty-four elders fall down before him who sits on the throne, and worship him who lives for ever and ever. They lay their crowns before the throne and say:"
So for one thing, it literally only speaks of the twenty-four elders casting their crowns. I think that since it's in Revelation, which tends to be a very symbolic book, it's safe to assume that the twenty-four elders can stand for all the faithful, but since Revelation is so symbolic, I have a feeling this laying at Jesus' feet is symbolic, too--maybe we actually will lay our crowns at His feet, but maybe this is just a symbol of our submission to Him. Anyway, even if all of us really do lay our crowns at His feet, our crowns aren't going to be the only things we have.
And about Romans 3:23: Yes, the wages of sin is death, but it doesn't say there can't be varying degrees of pain in death, and likewise for eternal life. Let's look at some verses:
Degrees of punishment:
Matthew 11:21-22 (and its parallel verse, Luke 10:13-14): "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you." ...so Korazin and Bethsaida will be punished more than Tyre and Sidon.
Luke 12:47-48: "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked."
...And Degrees of Reward:
2 Corinthians 5:10 (he's talking about believers in this verse): "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad."
Matthew 18:4: "Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Wow, thanks for asking that. It forced me to do some Bible-searching (because I'm not naturally wise. I just use Biblegateway.com!)
Nice! Well hmmm... I am the first one to take the Bible literally. In my opinion the Bible is always speaking literally unless it clearly states that it is speaking allegorically. If this weren't the case the Bible would have very little significance. I frankly don't know what to add at this point. Those verses could be taken different ways but if we take them at face value it supports your side of the coin. I still don't think I agree that there are different levels of punishment and reward but you did do an admirable job of using scripture to back up your point. Kudos! I think we just have to agree to disagree :-)
What!! I know I made a comment on here!!!! Ugg . . . . just when I actually have anything to add to the conversation, my comment doesn't show up. And now I don't remember what I said. hmmph.
i definitely agree with ryan.
boy you guys had a good discussion, i'm sorry i missed it.
No, I do absolutely believe that the Bible is literal and infallible, except in the parts that are clearly allegorical. It never "clearly states" it of course, but it's pretty easy to tell. A lot of the books of poetry are allegorical or figurative. And I believe that includes Revelation. How much of Revelation is literal, I don't know (there are at least four separate views on Revelation), but it seems pretty clear to me that there aren't going to be precisely 144,000 from the tribes of Israel and that Satan won't be pinned down with literal chains (because he's a spirit).
P.S. If you want to take it completely literally, we won't be casting our crowns--only the twenty-four elders seated on their thrones.
All right but anyway I'm pretty much beating a dead horse now. If you won't believe me after all those verses, fine, be that way! :) Thanks for the good discussion.
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