people’s blindness about environmentalism and the “green” movement is starting to get to me, just a bit.
no one seems to have read a single book about it or seen a documentary.
many seem to judge from seeing something on the news or hearing something about it from someone who heard some statistic.
i used to be one of the skeptics, it sounded whiny, and i heard it was going to cost a lot and that it wasn’t very important and it wasn’t our job as christians.
but once i read it myself, i was blown away.
it is for real. there is a threat to our world. it is important. it is our responsibility as followers of jesus.
but what i’m really frustrated by is the lip service.
“well we have to take care of the earth but it is ours to use and the environmental wackos can’t find a balance between cost and implementation, and they don’t value human life.”
that is the position of most of the christians i know (or at least have talked to).
you’re saying you don’t believe in raping the earth but you won’t actually back it up because you think the treehuggers have taken it way too far. the same tired examples against environmentalists come up. but what have you actually done to make a difference? nothing. not even the things like hybrid cars and recycling and those kinds of things. then do we really believe in it? or does it make us look good to say? and we don’t want to damage our reputation by associating ourselves with wackos. we say we believe but we're not willing to hurt our own lives to back it up.
there is never any action, we all can sleep safe inside of the machine knowing it will all keep on functioning as long as we don’t step out and protest something and change something.
it does cost a lot of money to protect the earth, and it costs a lot of the things we hold dearest here in america, it costs a lot of time and a lot of action, but we cannot leave this world for future generations the way we’re treating it right now. they’re not wackos, they’re sincere people spending every action trying to make this world a better place, out of their willingness to fight for the most valuable things in life. it does matter. and not only is it as bad as you hear, it’s worse than you hear. and we can make a difference, but even if no one could, it would still be worth it.
maybe instead of spending trillions of dollars bombing other countries we could find that kind of money to do something good in this world.
if enough of us believe in that, they will change. that is the blessed unrest, that is the irresistible revolution, that is why you and i can make a difference.
at the very least i beg you to be educated! that is one of the thousand blessings we have in america, we have wonderful libraries and great access to books and information.
well, i’ll get down off my soapbox.
i actually do like being known as the treehugger, not gonna lie. but i do not like people hatin’ on all my brothers and sisters fighting for a better place, you know what i mean?
we could talk about something else if you wanted.
in life is it worth it to fight a losing battle because your cause is just?
is it a good decision to associate yourself with people you may not agree with if they have some of the same beliefs as you? maybe it damages your reputation, but you stay true to your beliefs. yes, no?
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33 comments:
Sam, why did you delete your blog?
*mumbles*
i'm slowly breaking my habit.
but sometimes i need to let off steam.
I agree!
Yeah, well I'm not going to cave in and agree, but I'm not going to argue with you either. I really respect that you've taken the time to research this, which is something I haven't done. To be honest, at the present I don't mean to either.
which may be dead wrong. but I want to be dead honest too. I could sit here and say yeah, I'll get to the library and look that right up, but I know I won't and I'm sick and tired of telling bare-faced lies to my best friends.
so I don't know. I have a feeling you might be at least a little right, probably a lot right, maybe even completely right. someday I really might look it up. I can't stand the slant the media puts on everything though, which is why I don't watch the news. I have way more important things I can do with my life which will hopefully have an impact on the spiritual world in eternity, more that the physical world in the future. As much as the world is ours to take care of, we have the promise that God Himself will destroy it someday. not that this is an excuse for not taking care of it, by far, but we (as Christians) do have more important things to do, that we're commanded to do.
I don't believe in the greenhouse effect. I read enough in biology to see what an inconvenient lie that is.
but yes trees are important and really, someday, I might look at it more. That's the truth. until then, we are recycling and you're totally right that there are lots of things we can do to be good stewards of God's gift to us. :) I'm sorry if I don't quite live up to your standards, but this wouldn't be the first time huh? lol I'm just kidding so don't get mad. Thank you for teaching me to think for myself, and not just take everyone's word as truth, my parents and people who have raised me with their opinions. So sure I disagree with you on quite a few things, but I guess you're really the one who taught me how to disagree and hold my ground. so yeah...thanks.
I miss your blog though. Post here more often will you? you always make the best posts that really, well umm...make peope think I guess.
what's the point of this comment again? ;)
rotfl well thanks, that is a really funny comment and a great compliment.
that's interesting, i actually didn't know there were people who didn't believe in the greenhouse effect, shows you how much i know. are you sure that's what you meant?
i guess...i understand that people have different priorities, that there are things more important to them then how the world is. i just think you can't know how important it is till you understand the issues at stake. and it seems like most people against environmentalism or are apathetic about it, haven't read anything about it, or trust the media. and i would agree with you that the media puts huge slants on it all, trying to scare people and make them watch the news. but, i think published books are a lot more reasonable about it all.
but, yeah, that's cool.
I know exactly what you mean Sam. It is SO easy just to talk about what needs change, versus actually doing something about it!
There definitely are extremist on the whole environmental thing, but I think that some of the people who just want to keep the earth safe need to step out there and do something about it. But then, who am I to speak? I've never tried.
Bother. You've got me to say somthen now. :P
I have fretted over global issue like "global warming" and such and end up with the same conclusion:
There are people out there trying to fix the problem but are going about the thing the wrong way and are making problems for the rest of the world. Tree hugers are preventing us from drilling our OWN oil and so we fund the people that hate us because we don't want to "upset" the locals. The "locals" seem to be running the country these days.
2. There are always people who are in a position to do some thing about the problem but they don't for selfish reason, more spesifically money and power.
3. In the end all I do is fret! I discuss what SHOULD be done and what would be BETTER, but I step back to gain perspective and realize that change will not come, at least in my life time.
I don't mean to be pesemistic, it's just talk of "And why aren't WE doint any thing about it?" frustrates me.
Blah. Sam, I do not intend to be harsh or mean and I apologize, but maybe you should step back and think of all the thing you DO have and all the things you CAN do. I am the same as Verya in that I believe in honesty. (least I think that's what she was saying) simply bringing the troops home is not going to solve the problem. My brother is going to Iraq so do not take my statement lightly.
BE THANKFUL. PRAY. Talk to the ones you love.
that's right on beth, yeah, same here for the most part. we could try it together. want to climb up in a tree they're trying to cut down?
wellll. hm. well i definitely see our points of difference. for me, i actually kinda like the fact that locals have a big say and that they aren't being allowed to screw up the environment to get oil.
now you're right, it does kind of create a problem. because then we get in bed with the middle east to make sure we get their oil. and they screw their people over with our help, so then they hate the rich americans abusing them.
see, i agree with you there too. a lot of the people making the decisions are powerful moneymen. no doubt about it. but the thing is, the tycoons can't have the power for that long if we all don't believe in them any more! you and i are america, we are the people, what we decide is the government and i'm still young and idealistic enough to think we can change it. even if it isn't in our lifetimes and we can't change it, we'll be the ones that went down fighting and didn't just sit around worrying about it.
as far as the war goes, i am all-out opposed to it. i'm opposed to all war and i believe in nonviolence, from my convictions that is what jesus would have done. i'm opposed to the amount of money and resources our military is getting.
that said, i one hundred percent support our troops and i think they're awesome and i have friends and siblings of friends in iraq and in training everywhere and i respect them for it. i would never do it myself but they are awesome people.
because i do believe in them i want them to be brought home now so that another three thousand won't die for.........what exactly are we occupying another country for? why do we have military bases all over the world again? why do we bomb civilians?
*sigh*
yes. but i understand we have a different underlying philosophy, i guess.
and i have a lot of friends who have very different philosophies from me, so it's cool.
we'll have to stick with making poetry and not making laws =-)
Wow, this is thought provoking!
Sure, I'll climb one of those trees . . .
I find that interesting that you are opposed to war, yet you still support the troops . . . Sure, a lot of the whole government/military thing is messed up, I'm sure, and maybe in this case it is pointless to be occupying Iraq, but wouldn't you agree that there are times that war and fighting are important? Such as defending the country? I really shy away from violence, it is SO sad. Especially for the people of the country, who aren't even really involved . . .
anyway . . . my thoughts aren't comming out very clearly . . . sorry.
P.S. I'm not that great at climbing trees . . .
America...we the people....
we were built on the back of a war.
anyway I'm really tired right now so I don't want to answer questions or post my comments just yet. It would come out really weird. I will do it later though, that's a promise.
"No one our age has ever taken power before."
"Which is why we're too young to believe that certain things are impossible."
I just find it pointless to argue over things that are OUT of our control and fret over some thing we CAN'T CHANGE. And especially the war issue because along with every war in history there is some thing messed about it and some more than others.
And why are we trying to change the world by saving trees and bringing power back to the people when we should be changing it by bringing CHRIST to the people! HE'S the only one who CAN make a difference! Trees can not.
Mmm, good point Lindy. I bet nothing is really going to ever be able to really be fixed, until Christ comes again, etc. etc.
Thank you Beth.
I totally agree with that. There is something to be said for our actions bringing Christ to them though. Not that that really applies at all, just thought I'd mention it.
oh wow I really can be a dork sometimes! when I'm tired anyway. (well other times too) Yes Sam, I do believe in the greenhouse effect. Lol I MEANT I don't believe in global warming to the extent that it's a problem and a threat to life as we know it as the media would have you believe.
And I think there's a fine line of balance between say, preaching the non-violence of Hinduism and the violence of Islam. Christianity isn't either of those religions and shouldn't have the same take as they do. I don't know though, like I said I hate the news with a passion so pretty much the whole world knows more about the war than me. I was for it, because my parents are. You always make me second-guess myself lol, but I don't have an opinion on this either because I really don't know much about it. Lots of wars do have good outcomes though - like the Revolutionary War. And there are lots of times when God tells His people to go to war in the Bible.
I'm NOT saying this is or isn't one of the times.
And I feel weird saying that because I'm trying to decide if I believe in the statement "the end justifies the means" or not. Like, I was dead against it about a month ago, and now I wonder if sometimes it might be true. Thoughts on this people?
I think we've beat this subject to death and it should lay to rest now.
yeah, i think some of us have different philosophies, kind of funny how that works, we're actually different people.
imho, nonviolence works. it changes things, it's a better way to change things. but i think the focus is not if it works but whether it is right. even if it meant sacrificing democracy it is more important for me to not compromise what i believe in even if it doesn't protect the us or the us interests in the best way.
but that's just my perspective and interpretation, it's certainly not perfectly clear from the bible or anything. but yeah.
definitely see your perspective lindy and i respect where you're coming from. i definitely agree with you about jesus is more important.
and verya, i like your thoughts.
definitely in agreement on a lot of things.
though i think the ends don't justify the means, the old cliche.
yeah I never did either.
I'm still thinking about it though. I'm leaning towards the not side. But I thought I'd bring it up, because it would be neat if someone did believe in it and could try to convince us otherwise! It's always fun to get both sides...
Ugg! I'm so easily convinced. Somebody could walk me off a cliff just by talking...
What did you read, Sam? I've always been critical of the environmentalists, especially Al Gore. I suppose I don't have to like him even if I agree with him.
Hmm. I'm not sure what to say. I agree with you as much as I can without researching for myself. But how do we know that all the book and movies are all lies? How do I know that they're true? I can't go out and do all the research for myself.
Thanks for that post. It was really needed, I think.
Alright, Sam, I've got more. First, I want to say that I'm not trying to start an argument, and I want to just talk as friends. Not heatedly, calmly.
Okay, you said "the same tired examples against environmentalists come up" but just because they're tired (and they might be) doesn't mean that they aren't valid anymore. But I don't think we're actually doing anything to hurt the world as much as you think. You have to admit that some of these people who are so into the "green" movement aren't just doing it for one reason. I think there are some political benefits behind these movements, too.
It costs alot of money to protect the earth. But does the earth really need protecting? These concerns have really only come up recently. The last 200, 300, -however far you want to go- years we've been fine. And what that America holds dear do we need to give up?
We are spending trillions of dollars bombing another country - Iraq. But there's a reason. And maybe that is the good thing that needs to be done. We aren't just randomly bombing people, we're going after people who went after us first. People who thought it was good to destroy millions. Can't you argue that we're protecting ourselves?
You like being called a treehugger, but I need to know if that's really the right place to stand. I do want to be educated, and I want to look at both sides of the argument with out bias (sp?).
I think it is worth fighting a losing battle if the cause is just. - We are fighting a minority battle as christians, though not losing. - But I want to make sure I'm fighting the right battle. And I don't know if you are.
So please let's not start an argument, or get upset. Let's talk calmly as friends. Please?
P.S. In my last comment, I was not saying you might not be fighting the right battle as a Christian. I know you are one. I'm not sure if you're fighting the right battle as an environmentalist...
lol.
you're a reasonable disagreer.
definitely.
as far as books, i've been reading a book called "blessed unrest" by paul theroux which is very very good i highly recommend it. there are so many books. anything by national geographic or the sierra club is generally good, not wacko, reasonable.
i agree with you about political benefits 100%. that's really changed the debate in the last couple of decades because it used to be a nonpartisan thing.
remember, too, on the side against environmentalism, it is funded entirely by corporations because of the benefits they get from abusing the environment. when you start reading how oil companies contribute to the debates, literally millions and millions of dollars to support anti-environmental "think-tanks" and organizations.
but you're right, so many liberals give environmentalism lip service to get the vote of the people that care. which is kind of lousy. but isn't that what politicians do with jesus, too?
we need to protect ourselves from our biggest enemy. which is ourself, imho. we as it stands now are doing a lot of damage to the earth.
as far as iraq goes, yes, that is one legitimate view.
for me, i will condemn terrorists till i'm blue in the face, but the way to answer them is not with "you hit us first so we're going to blow the hell out of you and your countries." if we answer them with violence then we succumb to their philosophy.
we give them exactly what they want.
we become a monster so that we can fight the monster.
it may seem right to protect ourselves from what seems like unprovoked attacks, but maybe we need to turn the other cheek.
your last comment strikes home.
i think the two go along together.
but i haven't figured it all out yet.
i know that what is going on is not right and i know it's important.
i know that we're supposed to care about creation a lot.
but the connection has to be made through verse supports, not really from something jesus or paul told us to do. so i don't know.
i think you have to remember (in regards to terrorism) that america is not viewed kindly around the world.
people don't like america's foreign policy and economic foreign policy and the way america treats them.
so when it comes to whipping our enemies, there are a lot of them, and we are making them faster than we can kill them. and they should be our friends, i think, if we treated them decently.
does that make sense? it's rather late.
also, you're right that the same points could still be valid. my point was that in my experience, there are five or six normal things that are brought up against environmentalism, they tend to get repeated over and over again.
from the treehuggers, there's thousands of examples and fights and things to worry about, and they tend to have read a lot more about it then the people fighting it, who sometimes have no knowledge at all about it.
like my dad, who hates the treehuggers and thinks they're lousy, but has never read anything from an environmentalist and doesn't understand many of the issues.
or when we talk about terrorism, he doesn't know what the wto does.
but maybe that's just my experience, ionno, generalizing and stereotyping.
there's a song i like in which the guys says that "they're trying to tell you that 'its not that bad'" that has always stuck with me. that is the thing that is echoed a lot, that it isn't that bad, torture's not that bad, bombing's not that bad, war's not that bad, genetically modified food isn't that bad, dumping oil into oceans isn't that bad, species extinctions aren't that bad, global warming's not that bad, tree depletion's not that bad, etc.
but once i actually read the books, i was like wow. this is that bad. this is worse than i thought. this is horrible.
i was thinking, if you believe that corporations are the ones for the most part using propaganda to make people fight environmentalism, and if you believe these issues are real.
i think this could be the next thing that we look back on in forty years and say "wow. how did anyone ever oppose environmentalism?" (like we do with things in our history now)
is this what it feels like? i toatlly understand how people can oppose it, i just think that eventually people will understand and once there's some seperation from our age, there'll be different thought about it. and maybe that's just dumb of me to think that.
michaela, it's really cool that you're thinking about this. just don't pay attention to me--go find out for yourself. listen to both sides. come to your own conclusion. don't pay attention to the media either way, lol. books books books! come be a nerd like me!
okay it is really late.
You know, I can completely see environmentalists being people who think the world needs to be taken care of, and as they try to do that, they get so carried away, jumping on every little thing, without even realizing that they are doing, when they are just trying to do what they think is right. Of course those probably couldn't be the people who are involved with the whole environmentalism thing politically as well.
So Sam, are you saying that many of the people who don't support the environment, or who are against it, are they people who are going to benefit from not taking care of the environment? That is a really interesting point, in my mind.
You know people say that the whole "Global warming" thing is just a cycle, the earth is cooler, and then warmer, and then cooler, and then warmer . . . but we just don't really have enough evidence to know that the world is just getting warmer, because the technology hasn't been on the earth long enough to find out. So it could be that a lot of the environmental problems are just the way we can see them right now.
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Sam, you are still asuming that we're actually doing something against the environment. You said, "which is ourself, imho. we as it stands now are doing a lot of damage to the earth."
But I'm not completely sure that we are. I don't have any real proof other than word of mouth, and like Beth said, we've only had technology long enough to see a bit of change. What if we're in a huge cycle and we're just experiencing something the Romans experienced. We can't really know.
I agree with what you said about people using Jesus as a political tactic as well, and I agree with you. And it is sad.
We aren't just fighting to return a monster with a monster, we're trying to pull down the bad leaders and put up good ones. And once we pull our troops out of Iraq (which will probably happen if Hillary Clinton or any other democrat is elected) then a group of terrorists is probably going to turn around and start hurting us again. As a nation, we need to do the best thing for as many people as possible. Don't you think this is it? And no, I don't like America's foreign policy either, and I know we have a really messed up a government. (I'm reading a government book in school right now-very depressing)
You're a good writer/talker. The reason why, is you make us assume things that aren't even resolved (sorry for the insult) that's why it's so easy to believe everything you wrote.
But how do we know that all those animals are so endangered. I know some are, and I know that there are too many poachers, loss of habitat, etc. But, it might be exagerated. It could be built upon lies. I get a subscription magazine about animals at the end of each one, it talks about how these are endagered, we need to help these, these have a problem..... Don't you think it's a little over the top? Talk to my Dad about it. He's got great arguments and he's great at arguing (he is a lawyer after all)
I'm not sure. And I'm really not that educated. I just think that... well, we need to be careful in what we believe.
i like the way you think, beth, definitely see your side of it.
i think there are definitely environmentalists who take it too far out of good intentions, yes.
and not necessarily that the people against it are the people that benefit from it, but that's where they get all their funding, there is so much propaganda out there from the companies. it is kind of fishy, when you think about it, why would companies be so very worried about it...
you want to know a secret, i'm not convinced global warming is really happening. i'm not sure if it's just a media thing or not. i'm not sure, there are a lot of different views on it. my astronomy teacher gave us a lot of good information on it. i do know, however, that it's just not a good idea to pump a bunch of weird stuff into our atmosphere, i know that that can't be a good idea no matter what. so i do believe in the kyoto protocol and things like that, it's probably better to be on the safe side.
but that is a good point about our limited perspective seeing them now.
but then what about animals going extinct? or making rainforests into wastelands? there is definitely a fine line somewhere.
i don't think it's quite a fair comparison, though. the romans didn't have, like, tens of millions of cars each sending tons of chemicals into the atmosphere, the romans didn't have factories churning out waste products into oceans, the romans didn't genetically modify their food after they sprayed it full of pesticides, the romans didn't cut down 70% of their forests, the romans didn't dump their garbage into the ocean, the romans weren't using electricity at the rate we do (though they were close SIke), and etc. in all our things we thought were "smarter," it turns out we didn't really consider the ramifications of using the things we do. consequences for our shortcuts, if you want to think about it that way.
from what i've read and observed, yes, we as america, we as citizens of the world, we as consumers of the companies, we are harming the world. if you don't believe that we are, or don't believe that it's that bad, then you would be right to not support environmentalism. but hopefully you would only make that decision after you knew more information.
but mj, that's only if the ends justify the means (what kacy was thinking about). we're going to stop terrorism and put up good leaders (i don't believe we are, btw), but does that come at the cost of bombing someone else and killing a lot of innocent people? is that right, because the end result we're going for is right? it may be better to take out more terrorists and put up a fair government, that may be better, but it might not be right if america doesn't go about it in the right way. do you at least see that side of it, even if you don't agree?
do you see the contradiction we make when we "bomb for peace?" by bombing we are the ones that are destroying peace. we are coming into their country and killing thousands of their people. we are returning evil with evil. even if it's better in the end. everything in the middle is not right just because the end is right.
that's probably a very fair assessment. i'll give you that one. and i'm sorry for being convincing...SIke no i'm not, lol, no, rhetoric without a good basis is ridiculous. i wish i gave a fairer representation of the issues, i tend to be for either one side or the other on things, that's a weakness of mine sometimes.
and i'll agree with you whole-heartedly on that last one. =-)
you seem to keep saying that you're not educated about it though, i really mean that if you want to learn more about this then you should find some more about it, from many sides of the issue. i don't know a ton about it or anything, but you seem to keep saying that i don't know, well then you can know pretty easily if you want to, in my opinion.
the controversy is steaming from the monitor! the plot thickens! tune back soon for further developments!
Sam please don't swear. do God a favor and please don't.
lol global warming isn't that bad! (your guess is right Sam, it's not really a problem at all) but being a severely dichotomistic thinker I know politics isn't my stong spot. I see things as so black and white that it's really hard for me to take things by situation. then again, Jesus did put some things into black and white categories.
but He also met people where they were at, at their level, their situation, holistically. This drives me absolutely insane, because I'm not wired like that. But God wired me so there must be a good reason for me being the way I am. I just can't see it right now lol.
Like I said, I don't want to open my big mouth about the war when I really don't know anything about it. I support it because my parents do, which is beyond lousy I know but it's the truth. I told you guys I'm committed to telling you the truth here! I did want to ask you though, if you believe so implicitly in non-violence, what about when God sent His people to war to clear out the promised land of His enemies? just a thought...there does seem to be justifiable war in the Bible. OT mostly.
Umm...what are your thoughts on Hiroshima, the atomic bomb and all that? It seems that the end doesn't justify the means in theory, but it's harder to place in practicality. I wonder what the Bible has to say about it? *toddles off to see* I will look at it, definitely. History communicators put such a spin on some things so that everyone thinks about it the same way, it's crazy.
you really sounded like Anna at then end of that comment about being nerdy Sam!
Unfortunately (this just came to mind and should probably be on my blog, if I weren't to lazy to make a new post) many environmentalists who want to blow it out of proportion for whatever reason and just like many Christians. The Christians of today make me sick, especially in America (not you guys! you understand though, the chruch is way lukewarm...growing colder I think). We're either Bible-thumpers and we're looking under every chair for an angel or demon, or we're so apathetic it's never been funny. Like, last week I went to Macy's lighting of the star and Christmas tree, and there were these protestors with a bunch of signs: "You need Jesus, repent or perish!" "You are a sinner, you're going to Hell if you don't have God," which is true but not exactly the way to attract people to the Gospel, and not the Gospel message at all. People should accept Christ because they're scared of the afterlife. Then there's the other end of the spectrum, with our teenage community who thinks God is amazing on Wednesday nights and Sundays and thinks tight jeans and halter-tops are amazing the rest of the week. I'm so glad I don't plan to live in America much of my life. I want to be radical, I want to be around radical Christians! Why can't people see how incredible and overwhelming God is? I read this quote the other day, "No surprise for the writer, no surprise for the reader. No tears in the writer, no tears in the reader." I want God to just shatter my heart into an irreplaceable mess with the stuff going on in the rest of the world. Why is it harder to be a Christian who is vibrant here than anywhere else? THAT'S what really seems so bad, so wrong, what IS so wrong.
Am I too late with this comment, or are people still poking around here?
wait, what?
i wasn't aware i swore, or i would defend myself vigorously. lol. am i missing something?
i still wrestle with the god of the old testament. it's a very hard thing to understand, i know i haven't begun to grasp it. why is the same god that wants women and children slaughtered, why is that same god perfectly shown in jesus?
but america is not god's chosen people, all of the world are god's chosen people, so it's kind of hard to fight against the pagans when we're all pagan or none of us are, either way we're no better.
i find it hard to believe god wants us to make weapons to kill people made in god's image.
now jesus is hard to cage and understand, but can you imagine jesus picking up a gun and heading into war for america? i can't, i'm sorry, i can't imagine it, and maybe i've just stereotyped jesus, but i don't think i have.
remember when jesus came, there was no better time for a war.
that's what people wanted him for, to take his people and rise up against the evils, the injustice, the horrible things going on that were wrong, but jesus said, look, not only submit to the roman soldier when he asks for your coat, but give him all your clothes and stand there in your underwear.
don't fight back (by cutting off the ear of the soldier, for example).
stand there in your underwear and make a fool of their injustice.
i can't even begin to deal with how i feel about hiroshima and nagasaki. it's atrocious. i mean, wow. can you imagine? did it help the greater good, probably, but that was not right.
just watched 'v for vendetta' the other day, it deals with a lot of these things. good movie. it advocated violence, though, in the end. but it was a good perspective on things.
one sentence kind of worried me, verya, that people should accept jesus because they're scared of the afterlife. people should join christianity out of fear of what's going to happen to them if they don't? they're going to join for personal reward, if not here then later on sometime? and as christians we should expose that fear to better our cause?
people should become followers of jesus for a lot of reasons, but i'm not sure that's one of them.
maybe it's just my perspective, but from what i see, people are not scared of what happens when they die. not even deep down inside or anything. i think it's a paradigm shift happening right now.
i have a couple of atheist friends, and when we talk, they're interested in things like paradox and unconditional love and being fools for christ, that's the kind of things we talk about.
they're not interested in the so-called rewards of christianity, they're interested in the beauty and timelessness of it.
and you're definitely right on about the american church.
either they're selling advertising to their congregation, or they're trying to force morality on everyone, or they're selfishly focused in on church programs and church music and church everything, and not focused at all on the kingdom of god.
i definitely agree with you about the last part of it.
lol ok never mind - I just read something wrong! No need to defend yourself vigorously, but I know you would anyway haha.
No no no! that's not what I was talking about!!! I just looked at it and I meant to say "shouldn't" not "should." People definitely should never accept Christ out of fear. That happened a lot during the Crusades and look where that got us.
Hm. I have this feeling in my gut that you're right, if you have any idea how inconvenient that is, but I really don't know what to do about it. Where do we go from here? I mean, what should be done instead - we don't just leave the world the way it is, but we don't go after it with violence, so what do we do? And pretty much any candidate coming up for election is either for the war, or they would pull the troops but do billions of other atrocious things in America (like abortion, etc.)
And now, right now, when we're so deep into this, is it right to just stop what we've started? Isn't it our job to follow through on our committment and try to make life better for the people in Iraq?
I feel so missplaced because I've always had such definite stances on things, and now I'm up to my neck in all these gray areas and WWJD isn't helping a lot when each side has good and bad.
I saw the most amazing thing today that I'm going to try to post about tomorrow! I'm gonna write about it tonight or tomorrow and when I've revised a little I'll put it up for critiquing (oh dear).
I miss you all!!!! My life jumped into a Kansas hurricane and when I stop to breath like late at night I realize how long it is since I've seen any of you!!!!! ahhh!!!!!
*runs off going crazy*
wow I'm surprised you didn't jump on me more though about the accepting Christ through fear thing! It seems like something we just could have really gone on about for a long time until we figured out what we actually meant!
(I'm just kidding that really would be confusing and not much fun in my opinion)
Okay so I was just thinking today, what about the verse in Ecclesiastes 3 that says there is a time for war and a time for peace? Obviously if the God of the OT (not saying He changes of course, but there are different attributes of Him shown between the old and new testaments certainly) commands His people to war, there is such a thing as justifyable war. Maybe sometimes the end justifys the means? Many scholars interpret the sixth commandment as meaning intentionally murdering somebody out of malice or rage, etc. I mean, I don't pretend to know a lot about this because it's something I really struggle with too, but these are different arguements I've heard so I just thought I'd throw them out there.
Another thought I had was this: even if in the end I don't support the war (which I'm not willing to decide lightly after one day's thought) this is something my county is doing right now and the troops still need our support. They are all willing to give their lives to protect our freedoms and that is far beyond commendable. And in the end, I can't think of anyone I would rather have in office other than a pro-war candidate; all the others stand for too many things I never could support. Politics are so screwy you have to find the happy medium, no one's ever perfect so you just have to find the best. Makes you anxious for heaven, no?
Thoughts? You still poking around here Sam?
lol oh...i thought that was a little weird in the context. lol, my bad, i should have realized. *snap*
well that's great, verya. that's awesome, actually. yes, it can be rather inconvenient.
you and i need to show the world love. i think that's one of the most important.
one of my favorite writers about christianity, shane claiborne, his way of dealing with it, is that when the US left to go bomb iraq, he went over there and just lived with the iraqis. he just went and lived in their homes with them, and he told them he was from the US and he loved them and he didn't believe in what his own country was doing. i thought that was a pretty cool response.
as far as foreign policy goes...it's a hard thing to understand. there's so many sides to the issue, there's so many good and bads.
remember about abortion though, that the president doesn't always have a big impact on whether abortion is...anything. the president doesn't have power over that. it's a matter of whether or not abortion is a personal right, which means it's a question of the court system. the president does have a ton, a ton, a ton of say in foreign policy and economic policy and lots and lots of very confusing very important things.
abortion and gay marriage and things may be important to a lot of people, but most times they don't understand that the president can "take a firm stance" on those things and distract you from anything that's really going on.
well tell us about it verya!
don't leave us in the dark!
that sounds exciting.
yes, there are a lot of interpretations out there, but for me, i'm convinced of the side that says that the OT "just war" commandments were for god's people, and since we are all god's people, we cannot start a civil war (of sorts).
and why as christians should put patriotism before godism?
why is america's health more important than doing what's right?
i am a big supporter of the troops. not gonna diss there. they are awesome people to be around and really great people. i love the troops, individually. how the government sees our military, i hate that.
did you know that the US spends more on the military than the next fourteen nations combined?
did you know we have permanent military bases all over the world?
we want to be a superpower, and the military seems to be necessary to do that, so we will use any excuse to use our military. that's how our current government seems to see it.
but that wasn't why people voted bush in, they voted him in for things that haven't mattered at all.
if only we could pick and choose different parts of each political philosophy, the goods of everyone, immigration policy here, war policy here, economic policy here, foreign policy here, etc. that would be amazing.
it really is amazing how smart our founding fathers were.
i mean, geez.
they set up such a good system of checks and balances.
man, they're genius.
wait, I don't understand what you were saying about "just war." I haven't heard many views so maybe you could elaborate on that?
ummm...what sounds exciting that I'm telling you about? lol it's late and maybe I'm just missing it.
yeah, I was so young when all this started and pretty much as removed from politics and current events that I have always just gone with the flow (meaning my family). It's hard too, because I know this is something you're knowlegable about and have researched, and you were older than me for...well...the whole thing ha-ha, but my parents are also qualified there. I respect them and I respect you. I know our relationships with our parents are very different and so I'm not sure where to go from here. All of my information is second-hand so I don't know the best way to figure it out for myself, instead of saying whatever the people I respect say sound good. esp. when they conflict with each other!
any suggestions where I could get started?
so would you say that our troops have different perspectives of this war than our government?
and yeah that's really awesome about shane claiborne - that's exactly what Christians today should be doing. church and state just don't mix practically, even if for our founding fathers (yeah, they were astounding with their forsight!) the ideas did work. it's amazing how the world changes.
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